Curse

Spartan Link · Apr 19, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

I have not seen much change on the formation of Pug many still prefer the other meele class over assassins (:P i always seem to be the last choice to a group for missions)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai-JM

I hate seeing other assassins and realizing how badly they play when the person behind them isn't serious about it.

lol I hate seeing other assassins and realizing how badly they play as well XD
had that a few times when they cant deal out a decent dmg until you point out the error in their build

Alex the Great · Apr 19, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Their isn't one assassin build you could even devise that could beat a riposte swordsman. For that matter, not one melee build you could come up with could beat a capable riposte swordsman.

Blinding powder? Thats all well and good, but riposte will be charged in 4 to 5 hits, and Deadly riposte is an energy skill. Your sin would be bleeding and DW'd before he knew what hit him. Mending touch stops all that blinding powder crap, so then what would you do,my friend, but die. Warriors when played well will always beat a sin. I've killed 3 sins at a time with a riposte build, though it took some doing and a good bit of luck, but 1 sin is never a problem.

Anyway, the point is that the hate is somewhat justified, since most sins run into the buzzsaw instead of doing what they should be doing, which is looking to shut off the power.

you play a riptose build.......in pvp?

I dont think you are qualified to comment on the noobyness of others.
/return
lol

o and btw my opinion on sins is that they are ok in pve but a good dragon slasher can beat them in dps AND sustain it with little to no maintenance. I use enraging charge and "for great justice" with flail and my 10 adren is there extreamly fast

in pvp i play assasins about 20% of the time, BoA, Loucusts fury, and a sig spiker on a friends acount once (didnt like it)
they are more of a pvp class anyway

LightningHell · Apr 19, 2007, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Assassins in PvP was, in my opinion, not a well thought-out concept. Any character that can provide single-person spikes will either be gimped, or be overpowered. There is some overlap, which is where it is currently residing.

Assassins in PvE are a joke. You do not need sudden spikes, and Warriors and Dervishes provide more pressure than an Assassin.

Oh, and BoA sins are dead. Let's go Tiger Stance, shall we?

Lord Bishop Stone · Apr 19, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

I have never played a sin nor do I ever think I will, and I agree that in many cases PvE sin are a joke as Lighting Hell as said but I do know 2 sins both with very different builds one A/Me the other A/R they have helped in PvE much and they also lack the normal attitude that most sins seem to have, they know their roll in the party they know how to follow directions and a plan... and I know that many sins have finished the campains with heros and henchmen that however does not make them valuable in PvE... only mean that they tried and tried and tried again to finish learning the mission they were on... Anet makes the missions so that everyone can finish if they put their heart into it and learn the mission no matter how many times they tried...
Now back to what I was saying about my 2 friends sure I would take them anytime but it is also known that they were not needed, they were wanted cause they are friends but not needed by a long shot.
In PvP Sins can put pressure on a person but not on a group a good group can counter them easy.
In AB where Sins are abundant they are like a pack of wolves a good warrior can take a few of them on and much like a bear will tear them apart but when a pack strikes a bear the bear will lose... Sins can do a spike against an unprotected caster and that in essence is what an assassian is all about.. they are not and I mean NOT ninjas they are backstabbers.... they are not the omfg killer elites... they are cowards that will sneak in kill a person and leave that is their job... I would accept more sins in groups if they remember that they have one goal that is to kill the person the party leader tells them to they need to shut up and understand that they are expendable killers... backstabbers... scum... here to listen, obey and kill what the party leader targets... and most of all understand that they are expendable...(this is PvP not PvE) take out the target at all costs... if you die we will res you... they chose their profession not me

The funny thing is that most sins think they can do that... but they stray from the target... they run when getting stomped and wimper when out numbered... but are the biggest bragarts, name callers, quitters and gloryhounds you will ever come across... for all those that dont like sin haters and are sins that wonder why people might hate you remember one thing... you chose that profession not us...(and yes it is the same thing I say to the naughty touchers aka touch rangers, cheep build for cheep people, effective but cheep and brainless dont expect to be liked and never think yourself as honorable)
Enjoy the game...

Spartan Link · Apr 19, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Lord Bishop Stone I have never played a sin nor do I ever think I will, and I agree that in many cases PvE sin are a joke as Lighting Hell as said but I do know 2 sins both with very different builds one A/Me the other A/R they have helped in PvE much and they also lack the normal attitude that most sins seem to have, they know their roll in the party they know how to follow directions and a plan... and I know that many sins have finished the campains with heros and henchmen that however does not make them valuable in PvE... only mean that they tried and tried and tried again to finish learning the mission they were on... Anet makes the missions so that everyone can finish if they put their heart into it and learn the mission no matter how many times they tried...
Now back to what I was saying about my 2 friends sure I would take them anytime but it is also known that they were not needed, they were wanted cause they are friends but not needed by a long shot.
In PvP Sins can put pressure on a person but not on a group a good group can counter them easy.
In AB where Sins are abundant they are like a pack of wolves a good warrior can take a few of them on and much like a bear will tear them apart but when a pack strikes a bear the bear will lose... Sins can do a spike against an unprotected caster and that in essence is what an assassian is all about.. they are not and I mean NOT ninjas they are backstabbers.... they are not the omfg killer elites... they are cowards that will sneak in kill a person and leave that is their job... I would accept more sins in groups if they remember that they have one goal that is to kill the person the party leader tells them to they need to shut up and understand that they are expendable killers... backstabbers... scum... here to listen, obey and kill what the party leader targets... and most of all understand that they are expendable...(this is PvP not PvE) take out the target at all costs... if you die we will res you... they chose their profession not me

The funny thing is that most sins think they can do that... but they stray from the target... they run when getting stomped and wimper when out numbered... but are the biggest bragarts, name callers, quitters and gloryhounds you will ever come across... for all those that dont like sin haters and are sins that wonder why people might hate you remember one thing... you chose that profession not us...(and yes it is the same thing I say to the naughty touchers aka touch rangers, cheep build for cheep people, effective but cheep and brainless dont expect to be liked and never think yourself as honorable)
Enjoy the game...

so with all these thing your just tring to say in a long way that assassins are a joke useless in any situation?

as much as i like to argue with you but since you never EVEN bothered to trie the class your just making it all purely on your assumptions and your single point of view.

Lord Bishop Stone · Apr 19, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Yes, Spartan Link, you are right I am stating my point of view, my point of view from playing the game, No i can not say that all assassins are like this just many of the ones I have come across...And no I wont play the class, I really dont want to, I dont want to be a backstabber, spike and run/hide sort of guy, I dont think I would play one well... I am honest about it and I am honest about what I say is my point of view. Honestly since you put me in the corner then yes they are useless they are not needed on any team they can be wanted but they are never needed. They can sub for a warrior they can even handle their own but needed no... not now not ever... Will I play with a sin? yes I will... some of my friends play sins and I WANT to play with them... but are they needed? I dont think so.. there are missions in PvE where a necro is needed, where a Ele is needed, where a tank is needed... and of course a Monk is always needed but a sin? no I dont know if any mission where a sin is Needed. <- I have finished all 3 campains gotten titles but that beside the point... I just dont see where any of them would be easier with a sin on the team

Just a little question for those that use henchies do you pick the sin henchies? and for those that finished the game did you make sure that the sin henchies were with you? or did you choose the tanks, the eles and the rangers? (Im not mentioning healers cause well duh)
Oh and before the MMs answer that question did you take the henchie sin for the body or for the skills?
Again I say I have not played a sin nor do I think I ever will but from what I have seen, experienced and discussed... I stand by all that I have said.

EDIT- never once have I or anyone else I know say "If we had a sin we would have gotten that mission" where I have heard a few times "if we only had an SS" or "if we had an MM" or "we needed a nuker" or even say "if we had a good tank"

Shuuda · Apr 19, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Assassins in PvP was, in my opinion, not a well thought-out concept. Any character that can provide single-person spikes will either be gimped, or be overpowered. There is some overlap, which is where it is currently residing.

Assassins in PvE are a joke. You do not need sudden spikes, and Warriors and Dervishes provide more pressure than an Assassin.

Oh, and BoA sins are dead. Let's go Tiger Stance, shall we?

Your joking right?

1) It's already been proven 10000000000000 times that assassin can do more in PvE than Spike, for example, Moebius + DB can easily out damage other Melee AoE like Cyclone + triple or Hundred blades, and keep up the AoE for longer. Assassins have good defencive stances that can be kept up at nearly all times, so I'd say for PvE, anyone who says assassins are bad are a joke themselves.

2)Assassins can do more in PvP than spike, the Moebius BD combo works successfully and as show by Yanman, can even create good pressure in a HoH match (the AoE is an added bonus) Assassins bring more shut down to assist with kills than a warrior or dervish can, with hexes like Shroud of Silence, Siphon speed (or even strength) Expose defences, Temple Strike, and so on. I think Anet know a little bit more about their concepts than you do.

(odd how people think they always know more about the game than Anet, rather distrubing)

3) SP/BoA to me is the assassin version of the touch ranger, an easy build to play that was medicore at best. Using Tiger stance is just a sad way to keep a sad build alive, because some assassins cannot let go of their "OWNage buildz".

Yanman.be · Apr 19, 2007, 10:34 AM // 10:34

The SP/Boa's you see "pwning" the latest months weren't veteran sins. They haven't witnessed the "assassination" since day one, like some of us have.

9th Requiem · Apr 19, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bishop Stone

I have never played a sin nor do I ever think I will, and I agree that in many cases PvE sin are a joke as Lighting Hell as said but I do know 2 sins both with very different builds one A/Me the other A/R they have helped in PvE much and they also lack the normal attitude that most sins seem to have, they know their roll in the party they know how to follow directions and a plan... and I know that many sins have finished the campains with heros and henchmen that however does not make them valuable in PvE... only mean that they tried and tried and tried again to finish learning the mission they were on... Anet makes the missions so that everyone can finish if they put their heart into it and learn the mission no matter how many times they tried...
Now back to what I was saying about my 2 friends sure I would take them anytime but it is also known that they were not needed, they were wanted cause they are friends but not needed by a long shot.
In PvP Sins can put pressure on a person but not on a group a good group can counter them easy.
In AB where Sins are abundant they are like a pack of wolves a good warrior can take a few of them on and much like a bear will tear them apart but when a pack strikes a bear the bear will lose... Sins can do a spike against an unprotected caster and that in essence is what an assassian is all about.. they are not and I mean NOT ninjas they are backstabbers.... they are not the omfg killer elites... they are cowards that will sneak in kill a person and leave that is their job... I would accept more sins in groups if they remember that they have one goal that is to kill the person the party leader tells them to they need to shut up and understand that they are expendable killers... backstabbers... scum... here to listen, obey and kill what the party leader targets... and most of all understand that they are expendable...(this is PvP not PvE) take out the target at all costs... if you die we will res you... they chose their profession not me

The funny thing is that most sins think they can do that... but they stray from the target... they run when getting stomped and wimper when out numbered... but are the biggest bragarts, name callers, quitters and gloryhounds you will ever come across... for all those that dont like sin haters and are sins that wonder why people might hate you remember one thing... you chose that profession not us...(and yes it is the same thing I say to the naughty touchers aka touch rangers, cheep build for cheep people, effective but cheep and brainless dont expect to be liked and never think yourself as honorable)
Enjoy the game...

Firstly, my assassin got through all three campaigns with the least deaths and the least failures of all my characters. I've got her through both Canthan Elite missions.
Secondly, you're seriously prejudiced. We chose a profession we enjoy playing, and because of that you hate us. Sure, a lot of idiots play assassin. Guess what? A lot play warrior too.
Thirdly, the AI fails an assassin. It really fails. And the hench has poor builds.

For a very long time, people wouldn't have said "If we had a necro on our team, we'd have won". Then suddenly, MM became popular, and the necro became a "necessary" part of teams. So using that as an excuse just doesn't work. There's nowhere in PvE where anything is needed. I've played tankless, Ele-less and monk-less at the same time, and actually did better than on many runs with them.

Spartan Link · Apr 19, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bishop Stone
Just a little question for those that use henchies do you pick the sin henchies?

well to answer that part of the question i happen to use my assassin hench alot as support for my assassin,and through out most of the night fall missions as well especialy the releam of torment missions.

i am not saying that assassins are needed but i prefer to have a support that can help inturrupt deal dmg and distract while the other henches or peoples deal with the killing.

have you ever been in a situation where you cant get to the emeny spell casters because you have to prevent the enemy meele from killing YOUR spell casters?
I had that alot and i found having an assassin was good while the others are fighting you can quickly shadow step to them distracting them or inturrupting them to give your group the time to finish off the meeles with out worrying about getting hit by spells

(true assassin henches are totaly useless but they only have a set skill but with the hero atleast you can change her skill to suit your situation)

LightningHell · Apr 19, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

1) It's already been proven 10000000000000 times that assassin can do more in PvE than Spike, for example, Moebius + DB can easily out damage other Melee AoE like Cyclone + triple or Hundred blades, and keep up the AoE for longer. Assassins have good defencive stances that can be kept up at nearly all times, so I'd say for PvE, anyone who says assassins are bad are a joke themselves.

Hmm.

In PvE, usually if I want single target damage I take a DSlash warrior. If I want AoE damage I take a team of SF Eles. I don't take a sin, as they are inferior AoE damage-wise to SF, comparable to DSlash if counting 1 target (I know DBlossom hits more than one target, but I think I covered the AoE point before), but also far more risky. No one is saying that you can't use sins in PvE effectively. You can use anything "effectively". However, if it's between choosing the best in doing something than doing everything second rate, I'd prefer the best.

Quote:

2)Assassins can do more in PvP than spike, the Moebius BD combo works successfully and as show by Yanman, can even create good pressure in a HoH match (the AoE is an added bonus) Assassins bring more shut down to assist with kills than a warrior or dervish can, with hexes like Shroud of Silence, Siphon speed (or even strength) Expose defences, Temple Strike, and so on. I think Anet know a little bit more about their concepts than you do.

(odd how people think they always know more about the game than Anet, rather distrubing)

The Moebius BD combo works as plain pressure, similar to how a Dervish is pressure. It cannot execute a spike in the middle of pressuring, it cannot provide support in the midst of pressuring, it can only pressure, and in a predictable way. Balanced warriors may have the lower end in terms of raw damage, but the versatility of a Shock Axe, for example, is imo more useful than that raw power. Temple Strike isn't really used now, is it?

And funny you talk about ANet. I don't know, but my belief is that the players know more about the game than they do.

Quote:

3) SP/BoA to me is the assassin version of the touch ranger, an easy build to play that was medicore at best. Using Tiger stance is just a sad way to keep a sad build alive, because some assassins cannot let go of their "OWNage buildz".

SP removes the two most annoying things for a melee character; positioning, and opponent initial response (kiting), by shadowstepping to the foe and snaring him/her at the same time. This is why it is used, not because people are nubz and cnt lol ply otehr bettar leet buildz.

Burst of Aggression was used due to it being an attack speed boost, something which Assassins don't have a lot of.

I agree though, that SP/BoA is an easy build to play. It is one of the builds that has too much of an effect for too little skill.

Quote:

The SP/Boa's you see "pwning" the latest months weren't veteran sins. They haven't witnessed the "assassination" since day one, like some of us have.

Pray tell me, a nubz, what is this godly "assassination" that you talk about?

Quote:

i am not saying that assassins are needed but i prefer to have a support that can help inturrupt deal dmg and distract while the other henches or peoples deal with the killing.

This is why I do not get why people use Assassins. They need to pack so much crap into killing their target that they cannot pack utility like a Warrior.

EDIT: I should say why I think it isn't a well thought out concept.

Firstly, single-man spikes don't promote player skill. Usual damage dealers, for example, Warriors, cannot spike down a near full-health character by themselves, and so a single-man spiking machine would have to have some kind of uber damage dealing skills. PvP should be primarily based on player skill, not on who can spam buttons faster on recharge. Assassins seem to reward too much for too little, and in the opposite end of the spectrum, too little for too much.

Of course, there are some offshoots like the Moebius Strike-Death Blossom, as mentioned above. However, this is very prone to any significant pressure, as a Warrior has effectively 10/30 more armor than the Assassin and can overextend more, as well as the Warrior's higher vaule in terms of disruption and other support.

An Assassin can be said to be a caster class instead of a melee class. That is, an Assassin isn't here unless he has skills with him. Casters can pressure, it has been proven that they can. But melee - specificially, Warriors - are valued simply because they are more flexible in terms of pressure, due to the added disruption and their main pressure not needing any resources - you simply flail your weapon, and you are already either 1) hitting somebody for damage or 2) making the opponent expend time and energy to neutralize you, as well as giving up minor positional advantage due to kiting. Assassins only constitute a threat when they expend energy; you could say that it's less profitable in terms of energy costs.

Since it cannot provide all that, the Assassin has one very powerful chain. This refers to the single-target spiking.

There are some given solutions from the community, including:
1) Making the Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts attributes more usable in terms of support
2) Create some form of Energy Management that does not require you to hit an opponent
3) Scrapping the combo system, and replace with reasonable conditional attacks (e.g. health is below 75%, target is moving/attacking/casting, etc. Hexed isn't good, for example, because as this prerequisite tends to require specific building, it is made conditionally better than other similar skills, and the start of a gimmick.)

That is not to say that an Assassin is an underpowered class. It fulfills what ANet wanted it to do, sometimes too well compared to the skill of the player running it, but crap at others.

Hope that explains it.

Spartan Link · Apr 19, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

i am not saying that assassins are needed but i prefer to have a support that can help inturrupt deal dmg and distract while the other henches or peoples deal with the killing.

This is why I do not get why people use Assassins. They need to pack so much crap into killing their target that they cannot pack utility like a Warrior.

i never said all that have to be in one build did i? what i was refering to was changing the skill to suit the combat situation in missions or needed to support

plus whats the fun in using one skill set all the time? you get use to the same thing you get bored

LightningHell · Apr 19, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

You said you prefer support that can help 1) interrupt, 2) deal damage, and distract (which is irrelevant, because all actions relevant to the battle distract anyway).

Answer? Just use a Warrior with Disrupting Dagger or Distracting Blow.

Spartan Link · Apr 19, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

yeah but do you intend to charge head on pass the enemy meele when you know fully well they would try and prevent you from getting pass them?

and you needed two skill to do that when i really needed one

beguiling haze inturrupt and distract

LightningHell · Apr 19, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Note, "or".

Remember, a Warrior can use shadow steps as well. Also, a Warrior can survive blows landed on him.

Unless you're trying to get through a chokepoint, which shouldn't really happen if your team is playing correctly, the scenario won't happen. Furthermore, I'm pretty damn sure that you wouldn't use warriors to block a choke point, you would use casters.

Twilight_Theory · Apr 19, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Assassins are just want their name implies they take out the lone target and port out. That is what real hitmen just without the porting part. In gvg assassins well assasssinate single tartgets like archers and port out and same goes for ABing they take a sinlge alone target out and port out asap. Soo many times I have seen assassins port into the elementalist shrine alone and get dropped in 5 seconds flat. In pve they port into waves of afflicted and get dropped in mere seconds. I have seen an assassin with mending and I just about fell out of my chair laughing.

My first character was an assassin (currently deleted) and i hated the class. I made it all the way to Unwaking waters in the factions campaign and still couldnt find the class enjoyable. I played a monk with assassins on the team and i only heal them if they are really good otherwise I let them die because they are better to the party dead than alive.

Sparta do you pvp or pve with your A/Mo

Spartan Link · Apr 19, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

mostly pve and i survive fine

only thing close to PvP for me is the befriending quest and hated the idea of it people bashing each other making fun of others screwing around being rude just not my idea of funXP

oh and my assassin has all the other secondary class except paragon XD thay are soo hard to use

Yanman.be · Apr 19, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Pray tell me, a nubz, what is this godly "assassination" that you talk about?

The assissination of all the sins being deleted because they "suck".

LightningHell · Apr 19, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Mind elaborating?

Because from what I see here, you're trying to say that people suddenly thought they sucked, at a certain point of time before, and 'Sins were mass-deleted.

Yanman.be · Apr 19, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Yeah. And now when they're getting pwnfaced by sp/boa's, they suddenly remake their sins and wanna join the fun. Darn hypocrits.